Curse

Calibretto_9 · Aug 19, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Alright, lately I've been having a really hard time justifying the use of an elemental on my team. Now, before you get the wrong idea and have that mood hanging over you for the rest of the post, know this - I don't dislike elementalists, and have likewise made posts about the troubles I found when starting my warrior and the troubles I'm currently finding with my necromancer.

But an elementalist job, in general, is to provide heavy damage. Now, I'm sure there are other skills that can become helpful to a team, but being a necromancer with an elemental primary or a smiting monk in ele clothing isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking the straight up ele damage dealers. But therein lies my problem - As of late, it seems that the warriors I run into, and I myself, consistently outdamage any elemental we run into. Not only this, but warriors do not provide a "soft target," and therefore will live longer and provide less drain on the team monk.

Now I'm not saying that an elemental can't outdamage a warrior initially, because that would just be asinine. But what I am saying is that a warrior can bring extremely high amounts of damage to the table, will stay alive longer, and therefore keep this damage coming for much longer than the elemental. So what am I missing? It seems that an elementalist has very few options, 1 being an air spiker, 2 being a nuker, 3 being an earth spiker (But extremely hard to coordinate).

This isn't an elemental bash, but rather a call for enlightenment as to exactly what role the elemental should provide to a team that can't be better filled by another class? Of all the classes, I know the least about elementals, so please, show me exactly what merits this class in any team.

stokey · Aug 19, 2005, 09:01 AM // 09:01

fire elementalists are great for taking out groups of enemies at once. rangers have ignite arrow for groups, which isnt as quick as spells such as meteor shower. sword wars have hundred blades, axe wars have cyclone axe, hammer wars have crude swing. none of them outshine the fire spells for crowd control.

Schorny · Aug 19, 2005, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Air eles need to come down from the mentaility of spiking. Spiking is dead.

But you can sustain quite some DPS with air eles, of course, sustained DPS is a warriors big strength.

But it is easy to shutdown a warrior (snares, wards, aegis, weakness, blind,...)

To shutdown an ele is more of a challenge. It is still possible but it is harder than to shutdown a warrior.

Also area damage is a big strength of eles.

Another nice strength of eles is the fast target switching. With chain lightning and target switching you can drain the monk's energy really good.

But eles as spikers are near to useless now.

Calibretto_9 · Aug 19, 2005, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Right, there are plenty of warrior shut downs, but there are just as many caster shut downs (Being that 4 out of the 6 classes are indeed casters). Now once your monk removes any conditions/hexes, the warrior has little problem going back to doing what he does. The elementalist has protections, true, but coming from a warrior, it has yet to be enough to stop me from finishing them. Thank the many "irrestible" attacks for that. And I didn't mean in my original post to simply suggest Warrior>Elementalists, but rather when building a team, I see it as more beneficial to fill the elementalist's place with something more useful. It just so happens that when I need a damage dealer, I turn to a warrior rather than an elementalist.

JackOften · Aug 19, 2005, 11:06 AM // 11:06

As for PvE, Elementalists are plenty effective - Warriors don't outdamage anyone unless the target is a caster, and even the only conditionally and not necessarily in DPS.

The big problem I see with any caster class, primarily Mesmers but even ones with graphical effects that are sometimes just too subtle for the slow-witted, is that certain geniuses won't notice how much damage they directly or indirectly dished out. I've seen it happen with practically everything - from the blatantly obvious smiting (Hey yeah, your warrior suddenly does 60 area DPS dude! You rule!) to things like Diversion/Shame spamming for the whats-its-face Desert mission, which alone makes the entire affair a cakewalk. Most people can't even tell an excellent monk from an awful one, let alone notice anything but the yellow numbers above their target.

That however, by far doesn't mean the other classes are useless. Elementalists are great PvE and PvP characters and surprisingly versatile (Meteor Shower and Maelstrom make baby jesus happy).

Leddy · Aug 19, 2005, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Maelstrom is only useful against henchies or in PvE. Any person with any sense at all will notice the dmg they're taking from Maelstrom, which has an AoE of about... nothing. All they need to do is MOVE to the side. Likewise Meteor Shower is only good for the first 2 or so hits, because they'll notice and move.

Schorny · Aug 19, 2005, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calibretto_9

when building a team, I see it as more beneficial to fill the elementalist's place with something more useful. It just so happens that when I need a damage dealer, I turn to a warrior rather than an elementalist.

That also has something to do with diversity.

Both warriors and eles are needed. In Tombs an ele can be extremly usefull by nuking a meteor shower on the altar.

Warriors can spike but they can't on command. So if you need to spike something (for example you got a well of profane on the altar) you prefer eles on your team. And as I said, the quick target change can also be nice.

A warrior can be countered by many things, but have also great strengthes. For example the ability to constantly knock down the monks or to spike insanely (but not on command, they need to safe up).

I normally take both. I really like 1-2 eles on my team, because after the enemy prot monk is down and no fertile season is up, eles are insanely efficient. On the other hand, I won't take more than 1 or 2 eles either...

It really depends on what your build does. If you try to outdamage your opponent over a long period of time, I'd rather take warriors (but more than 3 warriors is IMHO a waste.. because most warrior counters are AoE...).

octaviancmb · Aug 19, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Sure, Warriors will *eventually* out-damage any Elementalist; but there's no way my Monk is going to willingly wait that long, constantly healing your ass until you do. If you want my Monk on your team, you better be brining an Ele, a Mes, and a Necro.

Elementalists deal their damage *now* to very, very large groups of monsters and then play a vital supporting role with their wards, which help protect the casters from bad Warriors who seem to fill their bar with their awesome +25 damage-once-every-12-seconds-adrenaline skill rather than crippling blows, tactical shouts, or anything that would help them hold agro or tank...

So the next time you're in a group of mostly Warriors and no Elementalists/Mesmers/Necromancers, ask the Monks how much fun *they* had once you're done. You may become enlightened.

CMB

Calimar · Aug 19, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Warriors outdamaging eles? Over time, yes, of course. But a wa needs time to charge up adrenaline, needs time to switch targets, needs time to do damage. Time is all that is needed for the opponent monk to cure the target.

Warriors and eles have a different places. It's true that most eles can't do much more than "firestorm! lightning bolt!" or whatever their element is. but AoE damage are the ele's department. There was the time when 5 eles and 3 monks was the perfect team.. spike to death. Now.. you have to be more subtle.

Oh, and someone said "meteor swarm is useless"... well you know, if you're smart and cast it when someone's near your monk, you're stopping your attacks or getting the full damage from it. Which is exactly what I want - move aside? cool, you're not hitting the monk.

Not to say "eles pwn" or whatever idiotry. I'm just saying eles have their place like any other class. You just have to be a bit creative in the way you use them.

Currently, I decided the best class ever is mesmer

NIB · Aug 19, 2005, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Air eles are pretty much dead. So are fire eles. Earth eles are very useful with their wards. Water eles are, well not that good(there are better ways to snare). Also primary eles can be godlike depending on their secondary. You can be a pretty good smite/prot e/mo with energy storage. You can be a pretty good e/me. Or even e/wa with hammer and pbaoe. Elementalist is probably the more versatile primary prof cause of energy storage.

PS Almost all aoe that do dmg over time are useless. Any decent human player will walk out of it.

Phades · Aug 19, 2005, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leddy

Maelstrom is only useful against henchies or in PvE. Any person with any sense at all will notice the dmg they're taking from Maelstrom, which has an AoE of about... nothing. All they need to do is MOVE to the side. Likewise Meteor Shower is only good for the first 2 or so hits, because they'll notice and move.

Actually, you have enough time to move out of the aoe of a meteor shower when the first meteor animation falls, thus negating the effect completely. Quite frequently you can also escape from it after the first wave. Meteor shower is really the only static aoe spell that can potentially do nothing except make the roaches scatter a little bit. Its only an overpowering skill when people dont have the sense to move. Against people with more than 2 brain cells its an over balanced skill and has little use. About the only thing you are going to reliably hit with it is another elementalist, who is miday casting a spell. Even then its questionable, depending on the spell that is cast and if you begin casting it durring a chainspell session of ether renewal. The other longshot is if you cover a different target being attacked by warriors, but even then the warriors can just change targets before they get hit once.

Other aoe effects at least hit on the impact of the initial animation once. This is of course excluding things like fireball, which can miss and still not trigger the aoe portion of the spell, due to its limited size (aka holding hands aoe). This is sad because it feels like aoe only frequently works against npcs, spirits, and warriors if at all.

Myodato · Aug 19, 2005, 01:26 PM // 13:26

There are so many other little details to consider. The one that always seems to be ignored is positioning. If a warrior charges to the back to attack an enemy monk, then his monk gets dragged into the melee if he wants to heal him. With an elementalist, he can sit back and do damage, allowing the friendly monk to sit even further back and out of harms way.

Bazooka · Aug 19, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Ranged damage dealing aside the other obvious applications of an
Elementalist's abilities are where enemy movement is restricted(like an altar or a dais) and area effects for stationary targets(spirits,lords,clueless players)

Talk of usefullness or uselessness of a class is dangerous because next month, you could be proven wrong when that class gets popular
I guess it depends on whether you see the Cup of Balance as being half full or being half empty

Calibretto_9 · Aug 19, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Schorny, I'm curious - In your first post you were quite adamant that elemental spiking was dead, yet in your second post you stated that if you need a spiker, bring an ele. This seems contradictory and makes it difficult for me to come to a conclusion.

I see the point in a lot of the arguments above, but would like to state 1 thing above all: I'm discussing PvP in its many forms. I obviously didn't state that clearly in my initial post, but yeah, I don't give a crap about PvE. PvE is a cake walk and I honestly don't need any "specific" class to beat it. My warrior soloed (Including no henchmen, just me) until I got to the latter missions in the northern shiverpeaks. So again, this is referencing PvP.

Now, NIB stated that air, fire, and water elementals are pretty much useless. And I agree that earth eles have good uses on the dais, but I have a harder time justifying wards and the like when battles constantly move making it difficult to stay in the wards. Not impossible with a good strategy, but difficult. And I appreciate the point made about elementals being able to attack without having to go deep into enemy territory (Like a Warrior), but can't a ranger do that as well? This wasn't so much a warrior>elementalist, although the reason it seems to be viewed as that is because both of their jobs is primarily damage, so they're viewed in comparison to each other. But I've seen excellent ranger builds who can do extremely decent damage, and can spice it up with a few interupts to make sure the target has no chance to heal themselves. Can they not fill the role of an elementalist of firing at range?

Just like to restate this, because I hate threads that become ruined with flames, but this isn't elemental hate. This is simply an experienced player wishing to learn more from other experienced players to become better, not to bash any class or exalt another.

Morganas · Aug 19, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

An earth ele is tougher than a warrior, can devastate an entire team in one volley (earthquake aftershock crystal wave), and can defend a monk very well with quake and wards. Also, their pbaoe range is a bit longer than a warrior's melee range. Also, obsidian flame is the best single target spike spell there is.

I cannot comprehend why so many primary elementalists ever bother with lightning and fire, while so few use earth.

Calibretto_9 · Aug 19, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Morganas, that actually sounds like a phenomenal build. I might actually bring an earth ele into a match to see how well that works. I've brought them before but haven't noticed anything worthwhile at all about them, but I suspect that an earth ele carrying that set up might be extremely useful.

Zeru · Aug 19, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Wards are absurdly good, use and abuse them. They are the primary reason why earth is good.

When NR is nerfed, Water eles will be practically mandatory for any gvg build and will be a nice staple in tombs as well. Their ability to control the battlefield is one of the strongest assets you can have.

EQ+AS+CW is a pretty bad combo, cause you'll never get off the last spell (EQ doesn't keep them down nearly enough).

5 Earth eles with EQ/AS is pretty fun cause you see their health drop so fast, but it doesn't work if they spread out at all.

You might want to look at iron mist as well. With NR abundant most teams skimp on hex removal, and this can completely screw over a warrior or net an extra kill when a team is retreating. It allows you to set up a complete body block in relic runs as well.

Neo-LD · Aug 19, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Thats one of the great ele strengths they can draw upon now that spiking is less effective. Elementalists now serve a more speicalized role, they are no longer pure damage dealers.

Bringing an air ele gives you some good spike damage and blind/knockdown.

Bringing an earth ele gives great AoE, knockdown, and defense

Bringing a fire ele gives you a great advantage on the altar map.

Water eles are skeptchy but can give a similar effect as a fire ele can by using maelstrom on the altar.

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Persoanlly I love earth elementalists right now b/c of the reasons Morgans laid out. Great defense potential, steady offense, and kncokdown. While a warrior can outdamage an ele, no warrior can do all of that.

Typically in tombs no team has more than 2 warriors, my teams usually take only 1, along with 1-2 eles (at least 1 earth)

Entropius · Aug 20, 2005, 07:07 AM // 07:07

On water ele's:

Warrior groups are starting to make a comeback (my guild won three straight with 4 warriors tonight, and fought another warrior-heavy group.) With all the warriors and smiters running about on both sides, snares are quite important.

Water's damage isn't that much below the other lines (compare Ice Spikes to Fireball, etc), and it snares as a bonus. However, in the current NR-heavy environment hexes take too long to cast. Water Trident is one of the better direct-fire nukes in the game, and it "snares" without being a hex.

Maelstrom on altars, priests, and healing balls is good. Ward vs Harm is a great elite, and Swirling Aura might gain popularity with all the ranger groups out there.

Inviolable D · Aug 20, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

You make very valid points, of late i have seen less "Damage" elementalits. People are for example taking the ele primary for the high energy storage and then taking monk and using it for healing, having 16 energy storage, gives alot of energy, and so can heal well.

I myself, on my first characer, which i use alot of the time, E/mo, i use earth Magic as my forte. I am pretty sturdy, My fav skills are, EarthQuake + Aftershock Combo. With this, i can deal, alot of damage to an area of dargets, that are surrounding, me, and because of my enchantments (Auro of Restoration, Earth Attunment) i get my health back from my spells, that are around me. Now that EQ + Aftershock combo allows me to get away for a while, where the Wariorrs pile into the things taht are surrounding me. That way, i can go to the back of the group and do some more spells. I also take, Obsidian flame, can be very useful against someone who has twigged tehre armour up so i cant mess with them and so on, it deals 100+ dmg guarenteed, as it ignores armours, weaknesses, strengths, so on, so what i hit on 1 i do on another. This can be good against one of those monks, or warriors you can never hit.

I have 90 energy, and never run out, primarely due to 1. a scroll that makes my energy spells recharge faster, so that means my Elite (Ether Renewal) is recovered faster than normal. If you look up ether renewal you'll see its good. With my 3 enchantments(ether itself counts), and sometimes more with protecters i can go to 5 energy to 90 again, in a few spells, with the Stone dagger move (which for me does 2 x 24)

So in answer to your question, yes alot of elementalits are not really primary, but alot like myself are, and its just taking the right one. I just outlined my tactics when im playing, and getting surrounded by warriors and so on. My only hate is mesmers, which, 1. interupt, 2. Strip my of enchantments (same goes with necro)